Kawasaki Versys Forum banner

R1 shock fitted - need spring source.

152K views 379 replies 60 participants last post by  foxpro 
#1 · (Edited)
There has been a bit of discussion about fitting R1 rear shocks to the Versys so when I saw a brand new 06 shock on Ebay for $75 I thought I would give it a go. The 06 model has the oil rservior at right angles to the body of the shock so if you fit it upside down it should clear everything and it does!! Well not quite. With the spring fully compressed it hits the black plastic trim under the seat, but not by much. I trimmed this in shallow curve slightly bigger than the reservior and that solved the problem.The fixing centers are the same but they are for a 10mm bolt. An engineering friend bored them out to 12mm and the unit was ready to bolt in. I had to fit spacers/washers top and bottom to ensure the steel bushes were held firm and not loose when the bolts were tightened and that was all.
I knew the spring would be way to soft and it is. With the spring compression adjustment all the way in to maximum, the static sag is about 80mm. It should be about 40 to 50mm.
My question is does anyone know a good source for a stronger spring from some one who will ship to New Zealand?
I have done a Google search but haven't had much luck.
My guess is that I will need a spring a bit softer than the Versys but not by much. If you happen to have the specification for a Versys spring that would be a great starting point.
With luck we will have found an alternative to the original set up.

Thanks.

PS: I don't know how to post pictures so my apologies for not being able to show you the set up. It looks cool!!

PPS: 31/08/09 Photo's now added. See further down the thread.
 
See less See more
#70 ·
copies

Copies of emailed discussions as promised.
I will send you the bush drawings when we have finalised dimensions.
Ted.


--------------------------------------
The PU bushes do not need to be bonded/fixed to the eyes at all. They are low friction/abrasion and have good heat resistance and durability. They are meant to be allowed to move a bit. I would make them a reasonably tight fit, but they will still move because they are made that way. It is not a fault/problem. They can compress slightly to remove any play, but still maintain a sliding joint. That is why Peter said to put a rubber grease on the bush/bolt when mounting to allow this small amount of movement.


Yes, agreed, a pair of top-hat bushes per shock eye, and I agree, having some large penny washers would be good too, I’m not keen on the surface finish of the shock mount points. I’ll try get some next week, and make up the bushes then also. I’ll make some spares too. Also, The bushes will be a press-fit, so you’ll be able to change them on the road if ever you have problems, so like my dad said, I’ll make up some spares. One rod of Polyurethane should make 3 sets at least, but I’ll make 2 for now, and if we want to try an alternative, like fitting some sleeves to firm up the mounts (possibly) we can make more, and if ever you need spares, we can just make them up too.
-----------------------------

Have a look at this website.

http://www.automedia.com/Upgrading_Your_Bushings/res20020701pb/1

Also, many cars fit PU bushes to their shock absorbers.
The PU is not in torsion, it is just a wear-resistant flexible bush.
When assembling one can use rubber grease or silicone grease (I bought a tube of silicone grease on eBay)

I think that it will be a good solution and the PU has enough 'give' to accomodate the geometry.

My BMW has needle rollers in the paralever and they get hammered and I plan to replace them with bushes - some use bronze but that is too precise.

I am still curious about the R1 shock in the Versys application, because the R1 is a rising rate suspension whilst the Versys is a direct application.
---------------------------------

The standard Versys spring is WAY too hard. Ridiculous. I changed that for the Hagon shock but the 14Kg spring on that is too small diameter for the R1 shock.
The rising rate thing is interesting. I went in to that and they don’t make special shocks for rising rate but it gives them the choice to use softer springs for comfort at small deflections rising to stiff when they want real control and big bumps.
-------------------------------
 
#71 ·
Good stuff there. Keep me in the loop.

...

I took a stab at the installation last night, but couldn't find the right washers on a sunday night (no surprise there). What's more, the one (soft) sleeve had not been bored out quite enough. I could hammer the bolt through, but didn't feel good about it.

So this morning I brought the bolt in to the machine shop and asked him to take off .05 mm or so... I think he's just going to grind it on a belt sander.

And I found a great hardware store here in El Segundo with a huge selection of washers, so I am well equipped to finish the job tonight. I found that I needed 5 mm worth of 12 mm washers on the top (needle bearing) and about 2 mm in washers on the bottom. No one around here has much selection of metric washers, but 7/16" washers seem to work.
 
#77 · (Edited)
Finished up the installation last night. A few things I learned:

- Fit a 2.5mm thick washer between the swingarm clamp and the sleeve.

- Needed to use the spool stand + "pipe frame w/ ratcheting tie-downs" lift to get the right angle to get everything in place and lined up.

- Didn't have much flexibility within the frame clamp. Had to put both washers (5mm total thickness) on the outboard side, otherwise the rebound adjuster would rub against the frame... as it is I see about 0.5 mm of clearance.

And my results:

- The 13.8 kg/mm spring is markedly softer than the original Kawasaki spring. I can actually feel the suspension moving when I plop down in the saddle. And I feel a bit closer to the ground.. can get all my toes on the ground now. This is without the Givi topcase, and a minimum preload. Will certainly need some preload to get the right rider sag. I think the springrate is good, though. Didn't seem to bottom out even over the really big bumps along my commute.

- I dialed out all the damping adjusters to full soft. The rear end feels great at low speeds and high speeds.. nice and compliant like I wanted, less so at "medium speeds". There are a few parts of the 405 where the concrete sections are short (maybe 12 ft long) and uneven with each other, so you get harmonic bumps. The forks still feel unsettled over these sections (and everywhere else, too) but the shock was nicely composed, for the most part. Definitely felt a lot more planted and comfortably in control. At medium speeds it still felt like the rear was misbehaving, but the forks are so bad it's hard to be sure what I'm feeling. I purposely rode over some Bott's dots, a high speed compression problem area before---the forks still kick but the rear soaks it up perfectly. I will reserve some judgment until I get the forks sorted. But for now I'm pleased as punch. Might dial in some more rebound damping but that's it.

- Everything is a compromise, and I'm not expecting the suspension to soak up all the bumps and still handle, respond crisply. But I think this is about as good as I could ask for. Feels composed enough to handle the rough going, but controlled enough for medium-performance riding. I look forward to trying it out on some dirt roads, and on some windy canyon roads. Gotta get the forks sorted first, though.

- The R1 shock with the blood red spring looks the business on the Versys. I took off the passenger pegs and supports---I don't need or want to ride 2-up on this bike, not yet anyway---and I haven't yet reinstalled the plastics that came off. Apparently I'll need to cut the upper plastic as Zeph did to accommodate the reservoir.
...

Here are the relevant pages from the 08 R1 Service Manual:




...

And one glamor shot:



Okay, two:

 
#80 ·
Oh, boy. Sounds about like how I felt last weekend.

Wishing you better luck moving forward.

...

I am yet to check my rider sag, but I have a sneaking suspicion it may be too high and I'll want a stiffer spring. I was looking at my sag numbers from the first/last time I measured it and I wasn't that far off target. Trying to figure out what, if any, replacement fork spring rate I should try while I'm in there doing the compression stack revalve. Need a reliable rider sag measurement first, though.

It's too bad work has to get in the way of fun stuff like this. :)
 
#81 ·
I weigh 93KG plus all my gear and kit = 120kg.
My 14kg spring is fine.
Are you very heavy?
I hope your spring really is 13.8kg.
Check sag first before you cut your throat. The extra movement takes a bit of getting used to after the rock-hard standard shock.

Ted.
 
#82 ·
Nah I'm only about 75 kg, so even fully geared and with a full topbox that's only a 100 kg load.

I'm pretty sure the spring is actually 13.8 kg/mm.

You're probably right, I'm just not accustomed to the shock actually moving. I have been gradually upping the rebound damping to try to get it to come back to equilibrium more quickly after big inputs. I'm only about 3 clicks in, so I've got a lot more available.

This time I just need to make sure I measure my sag accurately. I don't have a lot of faith in my original measurements. Didn't use the compressed/extended averaging method to account for stiction.

Ted, what have you done to your forks? Anything? I'm eager to get them sorted, but not sure how to determine if I need new springs, since the valving and the extraordinarily small air gap seem to obfuscate my ability to determine what the right springrate for me might be.
 
#83 ·
UAV.
I've gone through all this once.
I found that whereas I did the shock first I should have done the forks first.
After I had the forks done I then rode it with the standard shock on and it was much better that way than the Hagon shock with standard forks.
The standard fork spring is fine. Revalve the forks to get much less compression damping plus more rebound damping. Revelation!
Do it UAV you wont regret it.
I hope you can find someone to do your forks. Mine were done by MH Racing in UK. I don't know what air-gap he left, he didn't tell me, but I never laid a finger on the settings when the forks came back, to this day. He got them dead right to the weight I told him. Cost me 250 pounds sterling but it costs more now.
I haven't done a track day (yet), but I have ridden it pretty damn hard on lots of superb grippy and twisty roads in Spain, and the bike is always better than I am. You need very grippy tyres to do it justice. Don't go for mileage tyres.

Ted.
 
#85 ·
Hey Ted,

Doing well. Dropping my bike off at Fineline this morning for the fork revalve... the plan is to change the compression stack, oil and oil level (lower), and get shorter preload spacers so I can get down to 50 mm of front sag.

I posted my latest results over in zeph's 10,000km thread:

I've been riding around on my 08 R1 shock w/ 13.8 kg/mm Eibach spring the past couple weeks. But it wasn't until last night that I really saw the light. It had felt rather bouncy (i.e. underdamped) and I'd been working my way up on the rebound damping adjuster. But yesterday I visited a suspension shop (Fineline in Huntington Beach, CA) and Jason there did some bounce tests and set it at the Max and DAMN IS IT GOOD! This thing feels like a real sportbike now. The ride is still a little rough, either due to the fork compression valving (which Jason will be addressing next week) or because the oil within the shock is too restricted at MAX rebound. I may go out a few clicks for more ride comfort.

We should all keep in mind, though, that its very difficult to directly compare suspension settings. Even if we were the same weight, with identically built and worn components, we'd still probably like our bikes set up differently. Point being, don't put too much stock in other people's numbers... do your own testing.

Nevertheless, I was blown away at how well the bike handled while still riding comfortably. The rear tire just stays planted, no matter the road conditions. I felt a lot more confident ... in fact I need to be careful not to speed now because it feels comfortable at speeds which were previously rather sketchy. I'm starting to feel like I could take this bike anywhere---freeways, canyons, fire roads---which was the selling point in the first place.

Anyway, I'm pretty jazzed (as if you couldn't tell) and can't wait to give the forks the same treatment. And to anyone who's even considering upgrading the suspension on their Versys, don't hem and haw about it for 9 months like I did. An R1 setup and a fork revalve is less than $400... $200 if you can do the work yourself. DO IT NOW!
- Steve
 
#86 ·
That's great Steve.
If you are that "jazzed" now, how are you going to be next week when your forks are done.

My PU Bushes should arrive today so I can get them fitted.

You know, I am mystified. The Versy is such a damn good bike, WHY oh WHY have they put such crap suspension settings on it?
It is NOT a cost thing because it would not cost any more to put different damping settings on it. They obviously prefer the rock-hard settings, OR maybe the market demands them. I don't know.
I sense a change is happening though. The bike magazines are frequently these days commenting strongly about the much better ride quality on some new bikes.
The latest issue of "BIKE" in the UK said the following, "Suspension quality has always been the Fireblades Ace, with a perfectly judged balance of ride and control. The 2011 Kawasaki ZX-10R stands nose to tail with the Honda. It's Showa Big Piston forks have all the measured damping and lush feel."
Maybe there is hope for future models of the Versys?
Ted.
 
#87 ·
Yeah I'm confused why Kawasaki would so cripple such a great chassis, basic suspension design, and engine with "brick wall" compression damping. I suppose their marketing language indicates an attempt to simultaneously offer the compliance of an off-road suspension and the stiffness of a supersport. And then something was lost in translation between design and manufacturing, as indicated by the discrepancies in the service manual. Oh, well... I figure this is par for the course with any motorcycle, especially a budget-minded bike---that one must customize the suspension parts, settings to fit one's weight and riding style.
 
#88 ·
Well, the R1 shock is in and I have taken it for a short ride over rough tracks.
It just feels so plush, like a different bike, even comparing it to the Hagon aftermarket shock which was much better than the standard one.
I have to get it "UK-MOT" tested now so I can road-tax it and then I can go and ride it properly.

If anyone else fancies all the work I have done to fit Polyurethane Bushes to the shock (in place of the needle rollers and rubber-bush), I can do an explanatory piece. Only time will tell if it was all worth it.

How are your forks coming along UAV? Its all gone quiet again.

Ted.
 
#89 · (Edited)
Hey Ted,

Glad to hear your R1 setup is working out. For my part, I'd be interested in the details of your PU bushes.

I spent last weekend working on my forks. It was a blast. Took quite a long time because it was my first time so I was very deliberate... and I did several things the hard way, making my own special service tools, etc. I really enjoyed the process, though, so I didn't mind taking my time at it. It was a lot easier than I was expecting.. the only real impediment is the lack of good information. It's out there, but much is hidden behind a veil of proprietary information, "tricks of the trade", etc. I'll try to photo-document the process next time so hopefully others aren't as intimidated.

I made several changes at once.. new compression shim stack, RedLine Medium fluid to a lower height, cut 10mm off my preload spacers. My results were positive, but the improvements did not go far enough. So for my next iteration I will try an even softer compression shim stack, and install softer springs.

It's really fun and addictive.. I would highly recommend DIY fork tuning to anyone with even a passing interest.

- Steve
 
#90 ·
My Flebay R1 shock will be in next week. Since the Wx here in Cleveland is still crap it's time to get on the suspension work. Good and timely advice regarding the sequence of modifications: forks then shock. That'll be what I do.

UAV ....what stack did you use, and what is your second-iteration recommendation now that you've ridden it ?

Time to get the bike up on the stand and get crackin. Here are my accumulated winter projects

CalSci windshield
GIVI racks
Eastern Beaver fuse panel
battery monitor
forks
shock
Russel seat.

yeah...that oughta' do it......
Should make for a nice middle-weight touring bike.
 
#91 ·
Hello Jdcooper,

If I remember correctly my compression stack is now:

17 x .15
17 x .15
16 x .15 (new)
15 x .15 (new)
13 x .15 (new)
9.5 x .2
11 x .3
11 x .3
11 x .3

It did improve plushness under high speed compression, but not enough. And even with less oil in the forks I'm not getting enough travel, so the next iteration will include 0.8 kg/mm fork springs from Sonic. I left town the next day so I haven't done much test-riding or experimenting with settings.

But I have been experimenting with the free version of Shim Restackor, which has helped generate some new shim stack ideas. I haven't yet decided on version 2. But chances are it will at least include several 0.10 thick shims in lieu of the 0.15's.

Cheers,
Steve
 
#92 ·
When my forks were done by MH Racing he didn't tell me what he had done to the shim stacks except to reduce compression and increase rebound.
I reckon he reduced compression a lot.
I retained the standard spring which is just right, so I advise UAV that you do your shims before changing the spring unless you are a lot lighter than me. I have NO desire to touch my forks, as I haven't done since he did them 2 years ago.
I would like to play with shims since I have never done so. My previous bikes that I did major fork mods to were all the old-type non shim forks which were very difficult to tune. Drilling new oil-holes or welding up holes and re-drilling etc.
Good fun though as you say UAV. Take your time and go step by step.
When Hagon revalved my Hagon shock when I sent it back as being too hard, they told me afterwards that they fitted the SOFTEST shim stack that they had, for the compression. They said if they fitted any softer shims they would deform into the holes on the shim backing-plate.
I read into that, don't be afraid to go a lot softer because my re-valved Hagon was still not what I call soft, unless you turned the adjuster right out when it was soggy and un-damped.

I will put a description of doing the PU bushes together. How easy is it to post photo's on this forum, can't remember if I have done it, (it is a pig on the UK forum).

Ted.
 
#93 ·
Fitting PU bushes

Polyurethane bushes for R1 shock conversion to Versys.
The R1 shock has needle bearings in one end with a steel sleeve, and a steel sleeve in a rubber bush at the other end, which both have to be removed.
The versys shock mounting bolts are 12mm whereas the R1 bolts are 10mm, so the R1 bushes have to be opened up to take 12mm. Modifying the Versys mountings to 10mm is not a practical job in my judgement.
Drilling out the 2 sleeves to 12mm has been done but I am not happy with this as the sleeve wall will be too thin to be able to take the required end-load to lock the sleeves into their mounting so they don’t rotate with the shock. Also drilling the rubber-end sleeve has caused problems of concentricity with others who have done it. The needle-roller bearing is not very heavy-duty for the greater shock-loading my Versys will get compared to an R1.
Polyurethane or PU bushes are supplied in my case by “Superflex”, grade 95 which is the hardest. They have resilience and self-lubricating properties and are very hard wearing, shock resistant and shock isolating.
The correct way to do it is to have a steel sleeve which can be locked into the mountings with an accurate ground outer diameter for the PU bush to rotate on. However the R1 shock housings are not a big enough diameter to fit it in and still have an adequate thickness of sleeve and PU bush.
I decided to buy 2 new mounting bolts from Kawasaki and hope they were made accurately round. They were good, so I polished them up with emery cloth and metal polish. They will not be as good as specially-made ground-finish bolts but time will tell.
The required running-fit of the PU bush to the bolt is an interference fit which varies with the application, but in this case 0.25mm is recommended. Now that is tight and requires a pretty firm push to get the bolt through, BUT, the thread is the same OD as the bolt shank so you have to “screw” the thread through the PU. This feels really bad to do but after removal the PU is so tough there are no thread grooves in the PU so it is ok. Next time I remove the bolts I will take a bit off the Threads OD with emery-cloth since there is not a large bolt tension as it is not locking onto a sleeve.
The down-side to this tightness is you have to get the bushes tight in the housing so they do not turn in the housing when you rotate the shock on the mounting bolt. One end of mine the bushes are tight but the other end the bushes are a bit loose and they turn in the housing. Since this is an elastic material when you force the bushes into the housing the bore size reduces, hence the fit on the bolt on the end with tight bushes is a bit too tight in my estimation, whereas on the other end the bush/bolt clearance seems nice but the bush turns in the housing.
I have to decide what to do about the loose bushes. I am currently investigating a special grade of Loctite which “should” stick PU into the aluminium housing. Failing that I could drill the housing and put a small peg in to lock the bushes (Superflex advise against this) OR make a new set which I may eventually have to do.
One further problem. At the swingarm end the mounting bolt cannot be pulled up hard as it has not got a sleeve to lock onto. In view of the very tight fit we have to prevent the bolt from sticking in the PU bush and rotating in the aluminium housing lugs which would elongate the housing holes very rapidly.
I have used “Schnorr” toothed-locking-washers on both sides under the bolt head and the nut, so a moderate bolt tension which will not deform the mounting lugs will still grip onto the aluminium and not allow rotation of the bolt.
I also used a Schnorr washer under the bolt head on the upper mounting which bolts into a tapped hole in the bike frame, because that cannot be over-tightened as it would lock the PU bush which would not then rotate with the shock.
SO! It is not an easy task to get all this right and is not a straightforward simple conversion job. However I am satisfied that done correctly this is a good strong and hard-wearing solution. If it has to be done again then Mark 2 will be a top-class job. Certainly the “feel” of the Versys with this superb “plush-action” shock is a revelation compared to the standard deeply unsatisfactory rock-hard shock.
The success of the conversion will not be measured until a lot of hard miles have been covered. I will strip it and inspect after about 1 thousand miles to check for problems.

Ted Scott.
PS. I will try separately to post photo's.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top